Tuesday, October 9, 2012

JTC

Just to clarify: if you look carefully at what I'm actually saying about this Jozy Altidore exclusion, I am not even going so far as to assert that Jurgen Klinsmann was wrong to do it. What I have been saying in volume is that the explanations don't begin to add up yet. That is what I'm questioning.

Whether some folks want to admit it or not, this it is supremely odd on the face of it. If Altidore is "lazy" he is lazy like Brett Hull was lazy. He has not been so bad as many claim in the US shirt under Klinsmann and a large portion of his lack of production can be directly attributed to the rest of the team's play and the coach's tactical decisions (in reality, harping on the goal stats is a bit like if we faulted Tim Howard for facing too many shots). The supposedly controversial Tweet is apparently a non-issue borne out of assumption. And if he trained so poorly, then why did the boss say the opposite during the time frame discussed? These overly simplistic justifications are all flimsy at best.

Maybe Klinsmann has a great reason for this, I don't know. That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out, which won't happen if I simply nod my head along to every curiosity like a dog agreeing to take a treat.





- Greg Seltzer

24 comments:

Nick said...

I think it's pretty simple. You can't take his comments at face. JK lied then or he lied now. I'll assume he lied then because it would be extremely silly to leave him off due to some yet unknown personal grudge.

Nick said...

But yeah, would be interesting if some enterprising journalist could get the gory details ;-).

TrueCrew said...

Fair enough comments Greg. But I think you are giving too much credit to Jozy on his Jamaica performance. It was downright lazy. No two ways about it.

As for JK's earlier comments about his training, those should never be taken at face value. All you are going to get is coach-speak.

My explanation. JK expects more from Jozy, both in terms of effort and results. Altidore losing his starting spot to Gomez didn't seem to have the desired result, so maybe not getting a call for an important match will.

Whether it is smart or not, only time will tell. But Jozy wasn't likely to start either match anyway, so I don't think his exclusion (or inclusion, for that matter) will have a large impact on if we advance or not.

C. Goldkamp said...

I'm fine with JK wanting "to send a message" to Jozy, but is now the proper time to snub him and do that? Probably not. These are as important games, even though they are against teams like Guatemala. And Jozy is in top form.

Matt said...

Yeah, your argument seems grounded in the belief that ANY coach is going to come out in the press and be completely honest. That is not how teams work. The situation is obvious enough, parsing JK's words and then slamming him for inconsistency is just finding a way to criticize him for a practice any and every coach take part in.

And for you it comes off looking like you don't like the decision so you will just criticize the coach for anything you can get to stick. Just my opinion, mind you, but it seems to be shared.

Matt said...

Although I will say...it does seem indulgent by JK. And he is taking a bigger risk here than most of us think is wise.

But Sunil wanted something different and here you go...something different.

Probably this will not affect advancement. But say it does...the one thing I am sure of in CONCACAF qualifying is that some day the US will fail. And I will probably survive the experience.

It is all part of the drama of sport to me (as long as it only happens once).

heythisisrobbie said...

I passed Sunil on the way out of Crew Stadium last month after the game and got to shake his hand.

I swear to God he had the softest hands I've ever felt.

That has nothing to do with Altidore, Klinsy, or anything, so carry on.

Greg Doucette said...

I agree Greg with your overall point. JK has been lying, and about a number of things. I have the same problem with the Lichaj omission. When directly asked, he said they now was not the time to call in new players and then he decided to call up 3 guys new to this system including one completely uncapped guy for the most important matches this year. We love that Klinsy has been open and honest but its going to continue to get him into trouble if he repeatedly contradicts his own statements.

Greg Seltzer said...

@ True Crew: Are you saying he was lazy in the sub appearance? Because I don't count a few bad touches as lazy. I count that as coming off the bench late. And I will again say Jozy is "lazy" like Bret Hull was lazy - in other words, he's not, he's trying to get lost amid markers.

So wait... the earlier comments of praise were coach-speak, but the recent comments are real? How does that work?

And I certainly hope you're right about us moving on without a hitch, because I continue to find that the attack sorely needs to catch up to Jozy, not the other way around.

@ Matt: That's just silly. For starters, none of this is obvious as the explanations make no sense. And I don't see any of the players who played far, far worse than Altidore in the Jamaica loss getting messages or lessons. And as for blaming Altidore for his lack of production, I've stated several fine points as to why that's bunk. It's not like he's getting tons of chances and stuffing them up. At all.

In summary, I have no need to wantonly criticize and I do not enjoy criticizing when I must. I'd rather shower everyone with roses and balloons and candy coins after every game. But that's not where we're at. We're at the point where the bad loss to Jamaica is the largest hiccup, and Altidore is about the last person to to blame for that.



Mark said...

brett hull > jozy altidore
was one of the best in the world in the best league in the world.

Greg Seltzer said...

@ Mark: Actually... if you go by the 22-year-old Brett Hull, Altidore is worlds ahead. Galaxies.

But that's not what I said, I compared his manner of approaching the area in attack to Hull's and the way they both are mistakenly criticized as lazy for it, despite the obvious benefits.

Mark said...

... galaxies... huh? LOLZ. Hull was still in the one the best developmental leagues in the world at the time AND he set AHL record for goals. it's been said by klinsmann it's been said by his club coach. is it possible that his these things may be true? I've been a huge advocate for Jozy, but I just don't see him working the way gomez does out there. Even taylor twellman, as much as I hate his commentary, made the point that with poor service you should be hustling and flying around the field making trouble for the defense and jozy just looks uninterested. McBride lacked service, but he made trouble. Joe-Max Moore did the same. One of the best at stirring up trouble for defenders was Charlie Davies, case in point the goal against Egypt in Confederations cup, Jozy has not and will not ever create a goal like that. Yes, he may waltz by hapless dutch defenders in a league with a poor reputation and a general apathy for defending, but rarely will he put up the effort on the other side of the ball. One goal in 14 months for the national team (and 1 being a pk) speaks for itself. Strikers score without the best of service and can create out of nothing by causing chaos. Luis Suarez was a monster in the dutch league, heck even bradley put up close to 20 in the dutch league.

Greg Seltzer said...

The AHL??? Buddy... you can't school me on the career of Brett Hull, I watched it all close up. And at 22, he had just barely scraped the Calgary Flames roster. Hull was not an All-Star until the age of 25.

But again, you're fully missing the point of what I actually said.

Greg Seltzer said...

Furthermore, your view of scoring in the Eredivisie is misguided to the point of being cliché.

On top of all that, Suarez is a WINGER. Duh-doi, he creates better than Jozy. He's supposed to.

Matt said...

I'm sorry Greg, but your arguments keep going back to performance. It seems obvious to me the exclusion is for off-the-field reasons...in which case none of us can realistically expect full disclosure (as an extreme example, how long did it take before most of us heard the rumors about Harkes and Wynalda's wife?)

Code of the locker room, we just won't get much more than platitudes.

BTM said...

Yeah, I mean, I know goals just fall from the trees in the Netherlands, but doesn't it say something that Jozy's snapping them up at the quickest pace?

And, good lord, have you seen some of the finishes he's come up with this year?

Greg Seltzer said...

Currently, the goals per game in the Eredivisie games is about .1 higher than the EPL. People makes worlds too much of this because they don't understand Dutch defending.

Mark said...

So at the age of 25 Jozy will be EPL best 11, you heard it here first. Regardless Hull was in the best league in the world making a name for himself at 22. Keep preaching service, but put down your copy of brilliant orange, strikers in the dutch league get service as a result of poor defending. When's the last time the dutch won a world cup? ... Notice the some of teams that have, Germany, Italy. See their leagues also progressing further in Champions league. Defense wins championships. Go ahead give them 1988 euro's that makes at last count... 1. They may have originated it, but face it they're not even barca, because they CAN defend.

Greg Seltzer said...

"So at the age of 25 Jozy will be EPL best 11, you heard it here first."


This never happened. In any way. Again, my point had to do with a specific element of their games. How many times do I have to say this? Please give me a number.




"Regardless Hull was in the best league in the world making a name for himself at 22."


As if this even remotely matters... what on Earth are you on about? He'd had about five NHL games at 22 and nobody was paying any attention to him. He was not considered a can't miss prospect by any stretch and ended up being a late bloomer by hockey standards.




"Keep preaching service, but put down your copy of brilliant orange.... "


Let me try this one last time. The Eredivisie GPG average is infinitesimally higher than the EPL. It's like that every year. And last time I checked, the top leagues are filled with former Eredivisie defenders, who are as a group the tallest in the world on average. We also already know the Eredivisie is annually rife with big-time attacking talents. It's time to stop trying to show me up and start saying something that isn't a tired, wrong-headed anti-adage created by English tabloid scribes to cover for the fact that they haven't come close to winning anything in eons. And that's despite having arguably the best league in the world year-to-year, where Zat Knight and Titus Bramble can carry $10 million price tags for years on end.

Greg Seltzer said...

It's also worth mentioning that Germany has 80 million people and Italy 60 million, with loads of money poured into the league, whereas the Netherlands has 16 million.

Mark said...

zat knight? titus bramble??? your goto epl defenders!? man remember when heath pearce was being pursued by dutch sides? man he sure turned out to be a world beater on the club and national scene. it's also worth mentioning that denmark has a population of 5 mil and has exactly the same amount of euro champs and world cups. heck the U.S. even has the same amount of world cups...

Greg Seltzer said...

Erm, nooooo, those are examples of how extremely poor defending is also found in England.

And let's remember, this is an Ajax system that is often used by Oranje - NOT a Dutch system. Stop trying so hard. If you cannot tell the difference between the Netherlands and Denmark/USA internationally, then heaven help you. And last time I checked, systems originated in Denmark/the USA are not being copied by half the world.

dikranovich said...

greg, i hate to hear you bemoan the small dutch population and lack of wealth, but then prop up ajax as this great system, which it obviously is, yet, it is the system in holland with the most muscle behind it.

its like your argument is a little contradiction.

Greg Seltzer said...

It's absolutely nothing like a contradiction at all. The Netherlands IS smaller than the other countries mentioned by a large margin and Ajax IS a great development set-up.

Now, if you wish to argue either of those inarguable items, go for it. I can't even imagine how you'd do so.