Tuesday, May 27, 2014

Have It Your Way

I have been bruskly informed several times now that Landon Donovan failed to make Klinsi's World Cup roster while listed in the forward pool, and not as a wide midfielder like I'd use him. As if the camp roster designation actually mattered... fair enough. I can play that game, too.

Allow me to tell a story. In February of 2013, Chris Wondolowski scored his first international goal against Guatemala. The play was made by Donovan's run and dish, but a opponent's foot broke the chain enough that he did not get an assist on the play.

Since that Wondo(w) account opener, he has added another eight goals for the USMNT. Let's take a little look at those nine tallies real quick. I won't even touch the full history of Donovan production or the much higher levels of competition it has often come against, his vast experience edge or his greater versatility as a player. Let's keep it very simple.

And please bear in mind this is no slight to Wondolowski, just a comparison of "forwards" on the provisional roster, as apparently is required.

Number of CW goals scored with LD on the field: 8 of 9
Number of CW goals with LD as his partner up top: 7 of 9
Number of CW goals with LD directly involved in creation: 5 of 9
Number of CW goals assisted by LD: 1
Number of LD goals assisted by CW: 0

Total LD production in games they both played since Feb. '13: 7 G, 8 A

So, you all were saying... ?




- Greg Seltzer

71 comments:

EvertonBrian said...

Greg, I have been with you since day 1. Ridiculous decision to leave off LD.

Side note - what on earth is happening here? Festrunk Bros impersonation? High as hell?

http://instagram.com/p/oefA24qGb3/

RobUsry said...

Landon wasn't on the field for his 9th goal.

Yes, I'm that guy.

Greg Seltzer said...

You are correct, he came on after the Wondo goal. And I have no problem whatsoever with "that guy" when I have made an error.

Thanks for the catch, I will fix it.

justinwkoehn said...

I'll buy the Lando > Wondo argument, no problem. I'd like to see a bit more analysis on their stats coming off the bench, because neither would have been starting.

RobUsry said...

There is no logical X's and O's or statistical defense for Landon's snub. This was obviously personal. I understand the uproar from the majority of fans and media. But, in my opinion, Landon has lost a half of a step or so. He's definitely not the same player he was 4 years ago. If Klinsmann felt it was best for the team, I have to support his decision. For all the crazy stuff he's done so far, he's yet to stumble in the meaningful results department. I'll trust him until we do.

dikranovich said...

I'm not that guy, I'm this guy. Aside from Donovan, I'm not getting the logic of Cameron not being able to beat out Goodson for the cb position, yet greg, would gladly swap Cameron for jones, yet Cameron has not played much of either position, but clearly he can play all three.

Let alone any of the Fabian Johnson anti logic.

Was chandler on Greg's final 23 roster??? Certainly a healthy lichaj would have been

justinwkoehn said...

Not sure how I feel about Fabian playing RB while Beasley plays LB. I thought Chandler was brought in to give Cameron the flexibility to move to the center (where he wants to play). I'm fine with Beasley at LB if they push Johnson to play LM. In either case, Chandler would have to be RB.

Greg Seltzer said...

@ justin:

You seriously need some analysis on whether Donovan could provide impact in late game situations against tiring defenses? C'mon, man.

@ Rob:

Remind me, what was the most difficult meaningful result Klinsmann has overseen thus far? Losing a step does not necessarily = less of a player. Donovan's playing brain alone is worth 5-6 players at a World Cup level. Legit.

@ dikranovich:

For starters, stop babbling about things that have nothing to do with the topic.

And again, you are flat lying. My final list had Cameron as the starting right back, the position he has played more than any other by a country mile.

The FabJo logic was quite clearly stated to all but you: injuries have forced my hand to slide him back and I have accepted this. Why you are arguing over a point where I have come around to your preference is just further proof you are here for no other reason than to disrupt.

justinwkoehn said...

@Greg
Lalas and Twellman, two who have been emphatically defending LD's spot on the roster even said that LD sometimes disappears during the course of a game, only to emerge late after he's unlocked the defense and sees where to put the through balls in or openings to attack. This is something that takes the course of an entire game, something he wouldn't have the luxury to do as a sub. LD didn't prove a spark off the bench vs Mexico, but that's only one game. The truth is that we don't have much evidence of LD creating an impact off the bench, because he's always been a starter. Just providing a bit of analysis to one small piece of a large puzzle, most of which will remain hidden for a few weeks.

downintexas said...

I would like to see Jozy with LD stats. That is what I'm more worried about

Tony M said...

JK's comment that Donovan is a forward served one purpose only: to se the stage for excluding him. It is transparently ridiculous to argue that he shouldn't make the team as a forward, but to argue that Brad Davis is better than Donovan - which he'd have to do if he listed him as a midfielder - is beyond the spin powers of even Jürgen Klinsmann.

And that's all the "Donovan is not a midfielder" statement was about. It had nothing to do with football.

Pragmatic Idealist said...

Ld only makes sense as a forward. I have a hard time seeing him running the field as a lw with the intensity and stamina needed to press high for 90 minutes in Brazils heat. I doubt his body would hold up.

Pragmatic Idealist said...

It's not hard going from there and seeing Wondo and aj in better form. Or seeing a coach wanting speed and energy off the bench.

It's believable to me that LD time has just passed. He doesn't take on defensers 1v1 at the international as well as he use to. Doest have the pace stamina or health that he used to.

Ld deserves to be on the roster based on his history but it's very debatable of he deserves it at the present

Greg Seltzer said...

Setting aside that I vehemently disagree with your wide midfield point, are you actually suggesting Wondo can bring more speed and energy off the bench than Donovan?

Pragmatic Idealist said...

Ld himself has stated his body limitations. No about wondo and speed. Energy - yes.

Speed options include aj, and green

Wondo - just in better form, works harder, and his body is likely to hold up better

What has ld done this season before the camp that demonstrated he was in top form?

Pragmatic Idealist said...

But if we are really debating ld vs wondo - isn't that a statement in itself that ld's time is passed?

Greg Seltzer said...

LD off the bench would have less energy than Wondo? Huh? Ask any team in the Cup what they would think about Donovan coming on as a late impact sub against them and they would visibly sweat. That would scare them. He would be among the top bench weapons in the whole tourney, with plenty of past history as proof of his ability to shine at this level. Recent form is nowhere near the most important selection factor.

And, no, it is not such a statement if the decision is completely faulty. His time is *artificially* passing. And I am confused as to how anyone could think otherwise, if I am being totally honest. This is cuckoo-times.

Freegle said...

@pragmatic - only if you get someone to concede there is a debate. I don't believe there is. People say that Donovan has lost a step. He could lose 3 more steps and still be 3 steps ahead of Wondo.

This goes back to the old saying that form is temporary and class is permanent... What's more likely: Wondo raising his form beyond CONCACAF levels on the biggest stage against better talent? Or Donovan finding his form in an arena he has already excelled in?

There is not one thing that Wondo does on his best day that Donovan can't do on his most mediocre.

Pragmatic Idealist said...

I don't think Donovan scares the opposition as much as you two do. He combined incredible vision with elite pace. When pace goes the vision is harder to use.

This year on the international stage ld not beat defensers 1 v 1. He still had the vision and the ability to make that crucial pass but he couldn't create that space and create that opportunity.

So far jk has shown in the late game sub he want speed and 1v1 attacking to go at tired defenses. That is not Donovan. That green or aj.

Wondo I don't know. I'm sure you can argue ld is superior even as a late game sub but if that is the argument then it's already lost.

Wondo is the odd inclusion for me. I would have thought another target guy but it's the 23 guy. So I'm no sweating that.

I think aj and green get on as late minute speed subs before ld.

He's just not the same player that he was.

william schmidt said...

To me, everyone claiming Donovan losing a step or 2 as the reason for leave him off the roster is missing the point completely. The reason for his inclusion isn't speed. The reason is his passing ability, intelligent movement and decision making on the ball. No one outside of Bradley compares to Donovan in those 3 categories. Being an 'impact' player off the bench does not inherently require the player be able to blow past defenders. Donovan's intelligence and experience is far more valuable than the left foot of Brad Davis, 1v1 ability of Julian Green or Terrier-like mentality of Wondo.

Greg Seltzer said...

Yeah, and after all these years, you would think it was not necessary to say that.

william schmidt said...

The oddest inclusion to me is Brad Davis. He has a quality left foot but so many other limitations. Is he athletic enough to get that yard of space required to get off a good cross? Is his set piece delivery that much better than our other options? Do you really put in a player for the sole reason that they can hit a good dead ball? How many chances to hit a set piece in the attacking third will he realistically get? From what I remember Donovan's set pieces were as effective as anyone not named Forlan in South Africa.

Pragmatic Idealist said...

It's about roles and how they fit. Donavan's intelligence, vision, decision making, etc can be provided by other players. - starters.

Once Donovan is no longer a street it becomes about his ability to fill a role as a sub.

Truth I Dempsey beat out Donovan as the starter. Zusi bedoya Johnson et have better stamina and health to press defensively and attack as wings.

Then it's about the roles left as a sub and other players fit that.

It's all about how a player fits in the roles needed and Donovan is no longer elite to build the roles around him.

Pragmatic Idealist said...

It's not as if the coach is just throwing players out there as subs and hoping for the best. It all has to fit together

Greg Seltzer said...

I do not agree with anything you are saying. Sorry. It all sounds like working backwards from the result you wanted, and much of it is just off base. What likely subs here are better equipped than Donovan to have World Cup impact? That point is sheer madness, and even if it was not, you have no evidence to support the claim.

I mean, holy hell, we are talking about a bunch of guys who have never played a competitive international past CONCACAF (if one at all) and **Landon Donovan**, a guy who just tore it up in MLS this past weekend.

Pragmatic Idealist said...

No need to apologize! Disagreement doesn't offend me. ;-)

So which parts do you disagree with specifically? Let's start with a question. Do you think ld has the body, stamina, and work rate that zusi and bedoya have to play both offensively and press defensively for 70 to 90 minutes in Brazil's heat?

william schmidt said...

I completely understand players having specific roles ect. That has not been forgotten. However, if you start thinking player X is better 1v1, player Y takes better set pieces than player Z and ignore the entirety of their abilities then you are over-analyzing what is a simple situation. Landon Donovan is simply a better player. There is literally no situation where, in need of a substitution in a World Cup game, I'm putting Brad Davis in over Donovan.

This shouldn't become about specific players that shouldn't make the roster though. Its about, no matter what, you make 1 spot for Landon Donovan. Take your pick from just about anyone on the roster and bring the greatest American player ever as part of your team.

Greg Seltzer said...

That his body and work rate can be at issue this late in his career is baffling to me. But let me answer you with a question: Do you think these physical attributes are the whole picture? None of those players have shown they can match his vision, creativity, production, experience at this level, coolness in front of goal or in the final pass and, yes, his durability.

And I never said he had to play 70 to 90 minutes every game. And I am sorry because I feel that anyone who thinks he is not a no-brainer choice for this squad is trippin'! :D

william schmidt said...

"Do you think ld has the body, stamina, and work rate that zusi and bedoya have to play both offensively and press defensively for 70 to 90 minutes in Brazil's heat?"

No, but does Dempsey or Altidore? You can't base this off of one single attribute. Donovan's overall ability outweighs him not having the same stamina level when compared to Zusi or Bedoya (most players would fall short of their work rate though).

Pragmatic Idealist said...

I disagree. He's just not that good anymore. You set your starters and the best system your think matches the opponents. Then determine what roles you want off the bench.

They are specialists that are on the team for specific purposes or they are place holders for specific roles.

You build around your starters, cover their weaknesses and highlight their strengths that best attacks the opponent.

The subs then fill roles. Donavan is simply not good enough to force fit into the starting system and looks to not be a fit for specialists roles.

That's my take

Pragmatic Idealist said...

That's why Dempsey and jozy are forwards. Both of them beat out Donovan for the starting fwds.

Then you start filling in backup roles

Pragmatic Idealist said...

His career is pretty irrelevant when it comes to his body.

Ld does not have the work rate of zusi or bedoya. In the systems he is likely to use and the likely defensive needs on the wings then I can easily see Donovan not getting looked at as a wing. That puts him competing with jozy and Dempsey - mostly Dempsey and Dempsey is far better at this point.

Subs then have specializes roles. You can argue ld vs Davis or ld vs wondo but at that point we are asking how far his skills have fallen and not IF they have fallen.

And you start second guessing the specialize roles which are hard to guess at

Greg Seltzer said...

Yeah, but he is not a forward at this top level and everyone on the planet knows it.

Greg Seltzer said...

My friend, I cannot even begin to agree with your assessments of Donovan. And his career has everything to do with the fact that he has long ago proven capable at this level. Everyone else we are talking about has yet to do that.

And umm, Wondolowski is 31 years old. Why is anyone pretending he is any livelier than Donovan?

william schmidt said...

I think we just have to agree to disagree here. Clearly comes down to where you see Donovan as a player. Tim Howard and I think he is much better than you do.

Pragmatic Idealist said...

I'm not. His stamina is an issue at the wing. Not so much at the fwd.

I think Dempsey and Jozy are better options at the fwd. Then it's about sub roles.

I don't think his experience matters as much when you believe he was competing with Jozy and Dempsey.

It's all good. ;-). I'm just sharing an opinion.

Freegle said...

So you are saying, in theory, that Donovan is in competition for a subs role with Julian Green, Brad Davis, and Wondo.

Julian Green is good (we think) at running at defenders
Davis is good at delivering set pieces
Wondo is good at poaching goals

And you think those three singular qualities are more important that what Donovan brings?

Let's say that Donovan has 75% of Green running at defenders, 75% of Davis' set piece, and 90% of Wondo's poaching ability.

Dosen't the fact that he can provide a high percentage of all those things while also providing leadership, experience, superior skill in picking out a killer pass, and the track record of performing well on the biggest stage and delivering under pressure, etc. make him more valuable than all of them combined?

Pragmatic Idealist said...

Lol cool

Pragmatic Idealist said...

I don't think it's that black and white. I think there are specific roles for subs and it's feasible that those guys fill those roles better.

Taking his skillset passed and present vs theirs is not the question. Define the roles and then see how well he fits them. I can see green and aj fitting that late game speed and 1v1 type sub. Not sure about wondo and Davis but I don't have the in depth knowledge of jks systems and roles - and then we are taking about the last two spots on the roster --- really knick picking there

The questions are 1) is he a starter or 2) is he a super sub psuedo starter

If the answer to both of those no then the rest is just trying to find him a spot

justinwkoehn said...

After the December draw, the US had a maybe 20% chance of making it out of the group. With these 23, at worst, we're now at 15%, and at best we are at 25% if JK's vision pans out perfectly. I say let the chips fall where they may!

Greg Seltzer said...

Where do you get these numbers? You can just say things you believe if you want, but it would be a lot better if you explained the reasoning behind them. I am still fantastically unaware of how you imagine Donovan gives less of a chance to win. You surely must be aware that this sounds crazy as a mere surface claim, right?

Yeah, I just think there are those who will work backwards from the conclusion they want. The pretzels you guys are bending yourselves into are not substantial in my view.

Freegle said...

@ pragmatic

Isn't it more logical to bring one guy that could potentially fit into multiple "roles" than 3 guys who must be pigeon-holed into one specific role?

You are "finding" (or in this case manufacturing) a spot for a guy like Davis with only one skill that may or may not be useful instead of taking a guy who does the same thing well and ALSO many other things?

Pragmatic Idealist said...

We are talking the end of the bench so for me at that point its coach's preference.

If LD isn't a starter or some type of super sub - it's really making an issue out of it just because it's LD

futfan said...

@Greg

>Yeah, I just think there are those who will work backwards from the conclusion they want. The pretzels you guys are bending yourselves into are not substantial in my view.

Not Substantial? That's extremely diplomatic. I think the arguments are plain stupid. There is only a 'debate' because people just assert that Donovan isn't good enough anymore. The reality is that there is no debate because that assertion is wrong in the first place. I am surprised you've spent the better part of the day arguing about it tbh.

And, even if it were true that Donovan had 'lost a step', it doesn't matter because Donovan being left out had nothing to do with his form/abilities. It had to do with Klinsmann holding a petty grudge.

The question I think we should all be asking, regardless of whether we make it out of the group or not, is do we really want a guy like that - a vain, petty jerkoff - running our USMNT program going forward?

I sure as hell don't.

Pragmatic Idealist said...

Personally Greg, I appreciate the discussion. Despite or maybe because we disagree- it's been enjoyable

justinwkoehn said...

I'd love to have a former world cup winning (player), third place finisher (coach), and Bayern coach at the helm that is not beholden to all of these MLS fanboys who believe "LANDON IS US SOCCER." Dear god, how will we be able to progress as a soccer nation with this mentality?

Just because we can't figure out why JK omitted him at this point in time, you want to drop him as coach? There's probably a good reason we aren't privy to this "grand vision," it's so that the 3 coaches of Ghana, Portugal, and Germany aren't privy to this as well. I'm not going to pretend I'm smarter than Jurgen and that this only has to do with a petty grudge.

Freegle said...

To piggyback off futfan, Donovan's exclusion is not just egregious just because he is still good enough. There are plenty of people who are good enough who don't make world cup rosters. It's because the players who were chosen instead are significantly weaker.

You can leave off Carols Tevez's and his perpetual craziness if you still have Huiguan, Aguero, Messi, and Levazzi. You can't leave off Donovan and is questionable commintment from two years ago for Brad Davis, Julian Green and Chris Wondolowski.

Klinsmann intentionally weakened our team because of his own personal grudge/vendetta. And Gulati gave him the means and opportunity by giving him 4 more years before we saw the results of this cycle.

Freegle said...

@ Justin... Maradona was a world cup winning player and oversaw a 5th place finish as manager (and not on home soil like Klinsmann). Do you want him managing the USMNT?

Greg Seltzer said...

@ justin:

1 - I am an MLS fanboy? Since when?

2 - Who here said anything about Donovan being US soccer?

3 - Who are you talking to about dumping the coach? I do not recall saying that. However... if this team flops hard, then yeah, he should go. Nothing controversial or personal about that in the slightest.

4 - I never said anything about why he did it, let alone to call it a petty grudge.

Just understand that the further and more often you venture away from the central argument of what he adds to the team vs. others, the more sure I am you are working backwards from the fact that you do not want him there for some reason. And to suggest that Klinsi is some sort of otherworld plane genius set to shock us all with his cunning... well... I would not hold your breath to say you told us so. Maybe you are right, I guess we will find out soon enough.

Chevis Ryder said...

I don't get all these comment about Donovan having lost a step - because he's 32? Throughout his career, his stamina has never, ever been questioned. He's a year and 5 days older than Demsey who's 31. Not that I've ever thought so, but questions about Deuce's fitness and workrate are much more numerous that LD's

No one is really going to claim that Wondo at 31 is in better shape that LD because he's 32, are they? He's actually only TEN months younger than Donovan - 31 is fine, 32 and our fitness freak for the last 15 years can't all of the sudden play for 90 minutes?

justinwkoehn said...

Greg, not all those comments were directed toward you or made on this board alone.

1-Maybe not MLS fanboy, but you do write for MLSSoccer :), although I am grateful you bring an international perspective to that fanbase who otherwise only views the sport in the small paradigm of domestic soccer.

2-USSoccer posted "who should be the starting lineup out of the 23" and the #1 reply was a meme of DONOVAN IS US SOCCER, with 600+ likes. This is the sentiment of many US fans, which I would argue shows that are Landon fans moreso than USMNT fans.

3- This was directed at futfan "The question I think we should all be asking, regardless of whether we make it out of the group or not, is do we really want a guy like that - a vain, petty jerkoff - running our USMNT program going forward?

I sure as hell don't." Seems like he's not waiting until the WC results to condemn JK.

4-See #3 and Freegle's "Klinsmann intentionally weakened our team because of his own personal grudge/vendetta."

On the topic of what he adds to the team, let's take a look at it completely from JK's perspective of what he knows about LD. He brought him in on a loan to Bayern that didn't work out. Second, he takes over the USMNT in 2011. What has Landon done from August 2011-Present that insists he adds to the team vs others? Some may argue plenty, and they may be right, but I think this is the lens we have to view this omission. Everyone here knows where they were when LD knocked in that rebound vs Algeria to promoted the US from being knocked out to winning the group. We are all so grateful for moments like that. Those moments, however, should not be in the discussion on who makes this team 4 years later.

Chevis Ryder said...

What does Donovan bring since 2011?

12goals / 11 assists 2084 minutes .99 g&a/90 .52 goals/90

For comparison
Dempsey
17g / 5 assists 2869 minutes .69 g&a/90 .53 goals/90

Altidore
11g / 3 assists 2247 minutes .56 g&a/90 .44 goals/90

Wondo
6g / 1 assist 665 minutes .95 g&a/90 .81 goals / 90

Johannsson has 1 goal in 213 minutes
Zusi has 4 goals in 1,112 minutes (.32/90)
Mix has 2 goals in 718 minutes


Klinnsmann cut a lot of offense.


jh16 said...

Is it possible that Klinsmann believes the team is better and has a better chance of winning without LD? That it is not about having the best 23 players necessarily but about having the combination of players that make up the best team? Kudos to LD for his past achievements. Let's see if JK got it right or wrong next month.

william schmidt said...

@jh16

Yes, I fully believe Klinsmann thinks these are the 23 players who most deserve to go. I do not think he has intentions other than to be as successful as possible.

However, I completely disagree that this is the best team available and think Donovan would be a major upgrade to the squad. That is where the argument starts for me. Klinsmann has made a major mistake in my opinion.

justinwkoehn said...

Chevis - I appreciate the analysis. It's a good representation of what happens when these players put on the red, white, and blue. Any chance of getting some club numbers too?

jh16 said...

@william schmidt
LD would not have been a starter most likely, certainly not in all 3 games. Hard to tell dynamics in locker room, but that may have created issues. USA is successful when they are one group united. They struggle when there are issues in the locker room. Perhaps JK was eliminating issues before they could develop.

Greg Seltzer said...

Ha! At what time was it when you first suspected Donovan was a clubhouse problem?

Hoo boy.

william schmidt said...

@jh

First off, there has never been an indication that LD was a locker room problem. Secondly, why would Klinsmann bring him into the 30 if he was a known locker room problem? Why even waste that spot?

Kirk Diggler said...

Anyone who says that a good reason for Donovan's exclusion from the World Cup is because he has "lost a step" are the same people who think thought Robbie Findlay was going to have an impact against England in 2010.

Chevis Ryder said...

Club

LD -33g / 29a 6758 .83 g&a/90 .44 g/90
Wondo 63g / 13a 8905 .76 g&a/90 .63 g/90
Zusi 17g / 34 a 8269 .56 g&a/90 .18g/90


Euro stats are a pain...

Chevis Ryder said...

So, I proved Wondo should start in Brazil, basically. ;)

bob said...

The famous quote "if you give me 99%, you make my decision easy" reflects one of the most important aspects in American sport. Every great team, player, coach, whatever has always had this mentality. Anything less than 100% is not enough. Landon Donovan has given way less than 100% recently and one week in camp does not change that. Look at every great American athlete: Jordan, Manning, Ali, ect. all of them share that relentless pursuit of success all great athletes have. Donovan does not have that quality and Klinsi is not awed by his past relativley small achievments in every single context outside of American soccer. The point of the world cup is to represent your nation and seeing a player like wondo even getting on the field after busting his ass and relentlessly pursing his dream, despite maybe a 4th of the natural talent Landy relies on, is something Ill trade success for any day of the week. I love Landon for what he has done, but he is no American hero, simply a very good soccer player. This is how you build a program, with the statement less than 100% isnt good enough. Watch any corny sports movie and you'll see that. Landon Donovan will never win us a world cup, but a statement like this just might someday. Taking an aging veteran coasting on his past accomplishments is what bad coaches do, so stop with this nonsense that there was no reason for dropping Landon cuz that's ridiculous. Klinsi isnt perfect as Chandler (although a case can be made for him if he truly apologized and made amends for his earlier transgressions) is still on the team, but dropping Landon is as American as apple pie.

bob said...

if someone had been around years ago to drop landon he would probably be twice the player he is today.

Greg Seltzer said...

Where do you even get this idea? No one involved said this or implied this and you could not have seen training.

bob said...

you completely missed my point

Greg Seltzer said...

I did not miss your point at all. I just find it to be one that you cannot possibly have acquired and I very much disagree with all the ways you have framed the issue. You are clearly speaking from a place of bias against Donovan, it is not exactly hidden or anything.

bob said...

So everyone who doesn't agree with you is just biased against Donovan? I could easily turn around and say your far more biased in donovan's favor than I am against him (even though I love the guy for past accomplishments). My point is that Klinsi had a good reason to cut him that I agree with. Ive seen Landon at his 100% best and this is not it. Landon has not put in 100% effort in the past three years even with his injuries and all other factors. Look at Kobe, hes older than donovan and has accomplished so much in his career, but he is still fighting tooth and nail to come back from much worse injuries than donovan. This is what Klinsi (and almost every other coach on the planet) is looking for and expects from his stars. Landon has not given him this over the past few years and has flaked on him before in crucial situation, so it's very understandable that Klinsi has lost a decent amount of faith in him. For our team to have any chance of succeeding every player needs to give everything they've got; it's a much safer bet that wondo and davis will give that than donovan. If I were in charge I would put donovan on the roster, but I understand why Klinsi cut a player who's motivation can certainly be questioned based on recent showings (not just in camp), is carrying nagging injuries that could seriously jeopardize his ability to survive the grueling pre-world cup workouts that are taking a visible toll even on the likes of michael bradley who is known for his incredible motor. Klinsi also seems like he is going to play with a diamond midfield, meaning that his wingers need to cover an incredible amount of ground which is probably the reason Klinsi listed Donovan as a forward. Once Donovan is a forward, for reasons listed above it is understandable why Klinsi would cut him. Donovan is truly a great, but he himself admitted he burned out a little after years of carrying such a heavy physical and mental load. I do believe Donovan gave everything he had to the national team in the past, but everyone has their limits and donovan hit his unfortuantly early due to his years of valiant service, for which is the reason his jersey hangs in my dorm room. Unfortunately, life isnt fair and donovan's time was cruelly cut short by the changes in the direction of the team and natural causes.

Now my point to you Greg is that you are taking an extremly narrow view of the situation and coming to the sensational conclusion and even personal attacks concerning Klinsi's ego. Im presenting logical reasons for Klinsi's decisions you claim are non-existent. Whether or not you agree with those reasons is not important, as those decisions are the what Klinsi is paid to make. Maybe they are the wrong choices, but questioning Klinsi's character is the only crazy and insulting result of Donovan's cut.

Greg Seltzer said...

No, but everyone who invents scenarios to justify their view that he simply no longer of great use has an obvious bias against the player. You are not presenting logical reasons at all, you are presenting pure fiction.

If I am off-base, then where did you see, read or hear that he slacked in training? I already asked and everybody who was actually in training says otherwise.

owen said...

U know what as a fan or a coach i dont care if lando cant do it for 90 plus minutes. As long as hes putting in the work at usa camps like everyone else and he gets along with teammates which both of those are a yes. Then hes on roster hes simply better right now than davis green wondo

bob said...

Are you just going to keep repeating the same point over and over again? You starting to sound like a fox news pundit. Your not addressing anything I said at all, I specifically mentioned that I am not basing my analysis on anything Donovan did in and I also said I do believe Donovan still can be of great use to the team, just not in the specific role klinsi views him in. I then went on to explain why klinsi why klinsi is justified in placing donovan in that role. Now 'justified' does not imply right or wrong, it means a deductively valid argument can be created to defend the position in question. I say all this return to my original point that klinsi had a rational reason to believe that donovan, in his system, is not one of the 23 that can best execute his system. Im not asserting that Klinsi is right to do this, but simply he is making an honest effort to do as well as possible in the world cup. Maybe he is wrong and this system/team will fail spectacuarly, but he is not lost his mind and valuing his ego above what's best for the team as you have claimed. Now we both disagree with the decision to cut donovan, but you are claiming klinsi is objectively wrong to do it while I am saying I disagree, but I respect his decision as a coach and believe he is attempting to do what is best for the team.

Also what 'fictional scenario' am I creating? The scenario in which there are reasons klinsi cut donovan and honestly believed it was what was best for the team going to the world cup? Is that scenario really 'fictional', as in completely made up with no basis in reality?

Greg Seltzer said...

I behave like a Fox pundit? Oi vey.

Bob, you in here telling a story about Donovan not giving all, not having the desire to strive, etc etc. And, unless you know something everyone else does not, all of that is pure fiction.