Sunday, March 20, 2016

Battle Crew

Jurgen Klinsmann has called 26 to camp for the USMNT's upcoming World Cup qualifying home-and home with Guatemala, three above the dress limit. I suppose the biggest surprises are four keepers, the return of Castillo and the apparent fitness of Altidore.

G - David Bingham (San Jose Earthquakes), Brad Guzan (Aston Villa), Tim Howard (Everton), William Yarbrough (León)

D - Ventura Alvarado (Club América), Matt Besler (Sporting KC), Steve Birnbaum (D.C. United), John Anthony Brooks (Hertha Berlin), Geoff Cameron (Stoke City), Edgar Castillo (Monterrey), Omar Gonzalez (Pachuca), Michael Orozco (Tijuana), DeAndre Yedlin (Sunderland)

M - Kyle Beckerman (Real Salt Lake), Alejandro Bedoya (Nantes), Michael Bradley (Toronto FC), Mikkel Diskerud (New York City FC), Ethan Finlay (Columbus Crew SC), Fabian Johnson (Borussia Mönchengladbach), Darlington Nagbe (Portland Timbers), Lee Nguyen (New England Revolution)

F - Jozy Altidore (Toronto FC), Clint Dempsey (Seattle Sounders), Chris Wondolowski (San Jose Earthquakes), Bobby Wood (Union Berlin), Gyasi Zardes (LA Galaxy)







- Greg Seltzer

56 comments:

dikranovich said...

well, I guess we will see matt besler at left back.

--------------------------------wood-------------------------
-----bedoya--------------deuce-------------zardes------------
---------------kbecks-----------MB--------------------------
---besler------brooks------Cameron---------yedlin-----------
---------------------howard-----------------------------

maybe we can drop Fabian into beslers spot

DaM said...

Sooooo if Fabjo can't go we are left with Castillo to start at LB. No Villafana, no Lichaj It's still Guatemala so there should be a way to win with this selection, but man Klinsman is really making a point about refusing to try certain players.

Greg Seltzer said...

Orozco has also played some left back through the years... but yeah.

david said...

I didn't expect to see him here, but Pulisic isn't on the U20s or U23s? Did I miss something?

OZ said...

DaM,

Do you know who Germany played at left back in the 2014 World Cup final?

Howedes, a center back. Argentina played Rojo at left back, a man better known as a center back.

In the Fricking World Cup final you had two left backs whose "NATURAL POSITION " was left back.

National teams, even the best of them, often make do with what is available.

You are making a big deal over nothing.

Greg Seltzer said...

Setting aside that Rojo actually came up as a left back, we are neither Germany nor Argentina. We do not operate with the type of players all over the field that they do. The very greatest teams can get away with stuff like that, we are not the best fo them and cannot do that so easily. Besides, you can't just move any center back to the flank and have it work. And if Johnson moves there, not only is he prone to some defensive errors (especially at the back post), but our attack is demonstrably weakened. We've seen this be a big deal before.

DaM said...

@Greg yeah fair enough, though as a right back I hate Orozco so not a huge fan as a left back either :)

@Oz Greg said it best but Matt Besler is not Howedes. Granted he has more speed but he is just not the same quality player nor does he have the coverage in the middle that anyone playing "out of position" would have. Not to mention when coming up Howedes spent some time at RB so it's not like he was a complete novice to the outside back world.

Also helps that Germany could create a lot from attack without needing overlapping runs from their relatively slow outside back. And yes, as Greg points out, let's not forget that as a left back FabJo is a great attacking option. He tends to lose runners every now and then and not track rebounds. The simple fact of the matter is he is a better left winger than he is left back. Not that I wouldn't take him at left back over one of our center backs like Orozco.

Look I am not saying we are going to lose these matches. It's still Guatemala. So maybe you think I am making a bigger deal of it than I am. But we have won like once at Guatemala, thought they would have enough in attack to need both Yedlin and Brooks with the senior nats and yet brought one really really questionable left back. That is at least cause for concern.

OZ said...

DaM and Greg,

The US is not Germany.

But Guatemala is not Argentina.

Germany and Argentina are high profile examples but there are plenty of national teams of lesser quality who make do with makeshift left backs, if they have to.

If Castillo breaks a leg, which would make a lot of fans happy, you could shift Orozco or Alvarado to left back.

Ideal? No but neither is Castillo breaking his leg.

It MIGHT be a big deal at some point but it is not likely to be a big deal.

DaM said...

@0z as i said in my post, it's Guatemala so I am still expecting a win at home.... and think we should be able to expect a win on the road even if we can't. But if he isn't going to try something different now when he is forced to rely on Castillo, I think it is safe to assume that the door is closed.

Greg Seltzer said...

Of course we can deal with Guatemala with a makeshift left back, but if this is always the attitude (and it usually is), it has long term effects. I'm not solely thinking of this week when I consider it a big deal. If you never play left backs, you will never have left backs. This has been a problem for eons now.

Nikolas said...

XI prediction based on (1) Geoff's listing as a defender, (2) Jurgen's affinity for the 4-4-2, of late, and (3) the dual assumptions that Fab remains out injured/Jozy is healthy in time for the game:
Jozy-Clint
Zardes-Beckerman-Bradley-Bedoya
Besler-JAB-Geoff-Yedlin
Guzan

Subs: Bobby for Clint, Lee for Zardes (bc Jurgen likes playing him on the left), Gonzo for Alejandro (pushing Geoff from RCB to RB, and Yedlin to RM)

Yarbrough, Mix, and Edgar dropped from roster

Note: Roster might morph into a diamond with Bradley doing more box-to-box work and Beckerman shielding the back 4 (obviously).

What say you all, in terms of prediction (not preferred)?

OZ said...

Greg,

You will never have left backs if they don't develop at the club level.

National teams can't really develop left backs. They just pick them.

For example, they can try Acosta there and encourage Vincent like they did with Shea but in the end those guys have to develop into left backs at their clubs where they spend 95% of their time.

And just because a guy plays left back at their club it doesn't mean they are good enough to play there for the national team.

Wondo is an all time, hall of fame level MLS striker but he is not at the same level for the national team.

Villafana had a nice run recently with Portland and now seems to be doing well with Santos. If it continues then I assume he will be called in. I don't see why there is such wholesale panic over him not getting a call this time around. It seems to me letting him get settled in Mexico when you have Castillo available makes sense.

Greg Seltzer said...

Left back at club level and left back at the international level are two separate animals and two separate developments. If you never bring left backs up with the NT, none will ever reach that second level - whether they are capable or not.

Still, I don't see anyone panicking about Villafana not being called in this time because of the games this week. And given his track record, I would not make any assumptions about who will or will not be called in by Klinsmann.

DaM said...

@Nik seems like a pretty reasonable group. Just a few quibbles: i think Mix doesn't get dropped. While we consider Mix an amid I think klinsman has shown he likes him deeper so he may be cover for both Bradley and Beckerman.

I have no clue where the Besler at LB thing is coming from. I have never seen him play the position for club or country. I hate to say it but I think castillo starts if FabJo can't go.

Also not convinced on the Jozy/Clint pairing. Not a combination that ever seems to work. Not sure Klinsi understands that, but with Jozy still coming off an injury we could see Clint play underneath Wood.

Nikolas said...

@DaM fair point about Mix and Besler. I just had a hard time believing Jurgen would really start Castillo at LB in WCQ after such a long absence from the NT picture altogether. Besler seems like the next best option in this group, strangely.
Who gets dropped in Mix's place, you think?

Dany Tzvi said...

just a friendly reminder that talking about the 4-4-2 diamond, the 4-4-2, the 4-2-3-1, the 4-4-1-1....

the numbers are cute, but all these are essentially the same formation. the only variation on what we've done is with a designated #9 and #10 vs having those two forwards switch off by committee. theres always a 6, theres always an 8, theres always a 10, theres always a 9. the only determinant of the position of our wide players is possession: when we keep the ball they are wingers, when we fail to possess they are wide midfielders.

against the netherlands and germany, actually, we played differently in a 4-3-3, and it looked great, so of course that will never happen again -_-

OZ said...

Greg,


"Left back at club level and left back at the international level are two separate animals and two separate developments. If you never bring left backs up with the NT, none will ever reach that second level - whether they are capable or no"

How does that work?

Do you pick a guy and keep playing him until he becomes international level fullback?

Tony Beltran and Justin Morrow were two fullbacks who were called up to the USMNT and were very good,solid MLS players.

Should JK just have kept capping them until they came good? If you see them today is it clear that JK missed the boat on them?

Or pick a guy like Taylor Kemp and do the same thing?

There just aren't that many USMNT games and camps where you can spend time developing newbies. They need to be ready to go ASAP.

It seems to me that when you get called in for your first cap you need to make as great an impression as possible in whatever minutes you get or, failing that, in training.

If that happens then, just like anything else in life, your chances of getting called back or of them maintaining an interest, in you are much higher. Nothing beats the impression a player can make in person.

You saw Benny make a negative impression and you saw Morris, Shea, Wood, Beckerman and guys like that make a positive impression.

The USMNT is a TEAM not a collection of the fastest guns. This is necessary because the US does not have top level gunslingers.

Greg Seltzer said...

Yeeeeah, we aren't talking about Justin Morrow or Taylor Kemp. Specifically, we are talking about Villafana and Lichaj, who are earning chances to rise to that international level and are not getting them. Meanwhile, other players at other positions (for instance, Alvarado) can come in and experience plenty of growing pains (to put it politely) for many caps while better players stay home. So some guys get to learn on the job and some guys just get left out over and over again.

And Benny has made a negative impression? Guys like Beckerman, Shea and Wood shined from cap one? Huh?

Sorry, but I don't think it's any secret or terribly controversial to say that 1) Klinsi's selection policy can invite criticism at times & 2) the team has underwhelmed a good deal since WC14.

OZ said...

Greg,

Benny obviously has made a negative impression at some level with JK and the USMNT staff.
He hasn't been asked back and i assume that has to do with being unwelcome at some level for some reason.

As for the guys who made positive impressions, I wrote :

"It seems to me that when you get called in for your first cap you need to make as great an impression as possible in whatever minutes you get or, failing that, in training."
I never said "Guys like Beckerman, Shea and Wood shined from cap one? Huh?"

You wrote that.

"Sorry, but I don't think it's any secret or terribly controversial to say that 1) Klinsi's selection policy can invite criticism at times & 2) the team has underwhelmed a good deal since WC14."

So? I wasn't addressing that at all.

Greg Seltzer said...

I don't think it's necessarily obvious Feilhaber made some negative impression (until his recent coments, that is). That would imply the selection process is always completely logical and without fault, instead of being one where Klinsi just has his favorites and his tactical tendencies. Feilhaber has performed well at a World Cup and improved in club ball since then. Meanwhile, he's had all of 30 USMNT minutes in a January friendly in the last four years and the team has yet to allow a goal during any of his JK-era caps.

And yes, we are addressing his selection policy. Some of those guys you mentioned (and others) have had empty appearances or worse, yet still get routinely called back. Now, I'm not suggesting that the way I would select players is perfect, but there have been oddities in the coach's noticed by more people than just me. sometimes his criticized calls turned out well and sometimes they certainly have not. But it's pretty clear his selection standards do not apply equally across the pool.

dikranovich said...

Greg, the way you would select players definitely is far from perfect. Dmb, became a left back, and did very well there, and he was not just thrown in there on a lark.

These topics get muddled in what one person would suggest as opposed to what someone else thinks, and meanwhile the national team moves on, and it really all comes down to what the coach thinks. Then post facto these people can say, "see, I told you so"

It's just so weird!!

Greg Seltzer said...

Yes, but unlike certain broken records who still can't grasp the concept of opportunity cost, I will freely admit when I was wrong. Even though Beasley performed admirably at left back, there's now no telling if he or any other makeshift wingback might have actually had more impact in attack for a team that was outshot 92-41 in four WC14 games.

OZ said...

Greg,

"I don't think it's necessarily obvious Feilhaber made some negative impression (until his recent coments, that is)."

If he had made more of a positive impression, logic dictates he would have been asked back at some point.

"That would imply the selection process is always completely logical and without fault, instead of being one where Klinsi just has his favorites and his tactical tendencies. Feilhaber has performed well at a World Cup and improved in club ball since then. Meanwhile, he's had all of 30 USMNT minutes in a January friendly in the last four years and the team has yet to allow a goal during any of his JK-era caps."

Wouldn't it be nice if the USMNT picked your favorites and followed your tactical tendencies?

What you are really saying is that JK's selection process could not be logical because it doesn't agree with what you would have done in his place.

Which probably reflects how many of us feel, but don't make it out that JK does not have good reasons for excluding Benny simply because it does not agree with your POV.

In other words " JK does not agree with me so he must be an idiot".

Again that is perfectly valid way for you to feel as a fan but don't make it out like you have a more logical or informed POV on Benny than JK does.

After all it his his butt on the line over this choice while we really have no similar level investment in that decision.

"And yes, we are addressing his selection policy...... Now, I'm not suggesting that the way I would select players is perfect, but there have been oddities in the coach's noticed by more people than just me. sometimes his criticized calls turned out well and sometimes they certainly have not. But it's pretty clear his selection standards do not apply equally across the pool."

JK has never specifically laid out his selection standards. If he has I haven't seen them.
Those standards have been cobbled together by the fans and media based on things that JK has said. However he has always been careful about qualifying almost everything he has ever said on the subject . This is what they call coach speak and what we call being lying. He is a pro coach, what do you expect? Did you ever see an interview with Bill Belichik?

Like the movie says, like Pirate rules, those "standards" are more like "guidelines". They are elastic. They almost NEVER apply equally across the pool.

In the Bradley era Bornstein was an ever present while Bobby Convey couldn't get arrested in a US jersey. The next time you meet someone who says Arena did not play favorites with his USMNT selections will be the first time. Ask Taylor Twellman.

If there was the equality that you imply, if there was no room for subjectivity ( what they call "coaches decision") then coaches would not be needed for the selection process.

It could be done on line with software developed specifically for the process, so fans and guys like you could pick the team . And maybe that will happen. But until it does there is always going to be a certain amount of subjectivity on the part of the coach and their staff. They are always going to have "hunches" about players and pick guys just on what THEIR eyes see.

Bob was eviscerated for years over his nepotistic attitude in picking his boy so much. As it turned out maybe Bob had a point. I am of the view that JK and his staff know things about all these guys that you and I could not possibly know in terms of how they might work in HIS team.

I understand your bias so you might want to consider that others are also biased in a different way. I'm sure if I disagreed with JK's selections and personnel choices I would feel as you do but as it happens, I agree with the majority of JK's choices.

Greg Seltzer said...

"If he had made more of a positive impression, logic dictates he would have been asked back at some point."

Who said logic was always present in every decision?



"What you are really saying is that JK's selection process could not be logical because it doesn't agree with what you would have done in his place.

In other words " JK does not agree with me so he must be an idiot"."


Speaking of things people didn't say...



"Which probably reflects how many of us feel... "

Well, if many people feel the same way, why am I out of bounds for expressing my opinion? That's kinda why you're here in the first place.



"... but don't make it out that JK does not have good reasons for excluding Benny simply because it does not agree with your POV."

I gave rather clear reasons for why Feilhaber should not be constantly excluded, and none of them had to do with serving my POV. Anyone can see the evidence I mentioned.


"JK has never specifically laid out his selection standards. If he has I haven't seen them."

He has constantly laid out standards throughout his tenure, and I am far from the first or only person to notice that they do not apply equally to everyone.


"Like the movie says, like Pirate rules, those "standards" are more like "guidelines". They are elastic. They almost NEVER apply equally across the pool."

And this is okay? Maybe you think so, but I don't. And again, we are talking about a team that has under-performed for nearly two years now. It's not like I'm criticizing over-achievements.



"Bob was eviscerated for years over his nepotistic attitude in picking his boy so much."

And those people were full of nonsense, which was clear all along. Regardless, I was not one of those people - when he was 20, I wrote an article about how he was going to be the team's metronome for the coming decade. I was also right about Bradley being picked, so I fail to see how that reflects on my opinions or equates to current decisions that aren't working for the team.


"I understand your bias so you might want to consider that others are also biased in a different way."

I am not being biased toward or against any player. I'm not here advocating or sticking with personal preferences that don't work.


"I'm sure if I disagreed with JK's selections and personnel choices I would feel as you do but as it happens, I agree with the majority of JK's choices."

Well, I guess there's the real rub, isn't it? Hey, if you think Klinsi has been getting the maximum out of the player pool, fair enough. Not sure how anyone could think that, but okay.

And by the way, I agree with a majority of his choices, too. Just not all of them, and again, I'm far from the only one with criticism about it.

Dany Tzvi said...

there is no logical reason that lichaj hasn't had a sniff. there is no logical reason that feilhaber wasn't at least in cupcake camp this year. its hard for me to say because i dont know these people, maybe greg knows better, but the only explanation is a personal decision by klinsmann, whether it be based on a desired team culture, perceived individual work ethic/ambition, or some faux pas.

on paper, it doesn't make sense. it merits criticism and discussion. we will probably not know the facts of the matter for a while, and that's how it should be imo. best not to hang dirty laundry in the middle of a cycle.

DaM said...

Just for the record, while I respect and love DMB for all the work he has put in US teams for something like 20 years, he was nowhere near as good a left back as people made him out to be.

dikranovich said...

DMB did a great job playing left back for the national team, and that is consensus, and everyone knows that Fabian Johnson did an awesome job at right back, and his injury at the last World Cup was our biggest loss

Just imagine if Bruce Arena had decided to go with the technically superior Steve cherundolo in 2002, at right back, over Tony sanneh. He didn't though, and he went with the player he was familiar with, even though sanneh was not a natural right back, and lil Steve was the future mayor of Hannover. Sanneh was one of our brightest players in 2002

I can't speak for everyone, but to me, quoting someone else is a crutch, and makes trying to follow any debate nearly impossible, far more so than any one individual posting multiple times.

The quoting has to stop, because everyones words are already available, well, until they are not, but there is no need for the quotes, really.

Greg Seltzer said...

First of all, Arena did not play 'Dolo in 2002 because he was carrying an injury. Can't possibly imagine what that has to do with anything anyway.

Secondly, Beasley did a good job and Johnson did a good job. Let's not wildly exaggerate or pretend that you hold a consensus opinion. And clearly the loss of Altidore for all but the whole tournament hurt worse than losing Johnson for a bit over half of one game.

Finally, and most importantly, you have no say in how things go here. I could not give a rat's fat ass what you think about any of it. In fact, you are currently fortunate I allow any of your comments to stand. I suggest you back it on up and **strictly** adhere to **non-repeated** and **incredibly** post-relevant commentary. Ya heard.

dikranovich said...

Greg, I have a say here, just like everyone else does. You are Trying to bully, probably because your opinions are not so strong.

I bring up sanneh, because he was a monster in 2002, and he was not a natural right back. This is the whole discussion. This is the non sense that we have been talking about for what seems like forever, and your response is that lil Steve was hurt in 2002, and that's why he didn't play. I don't think so!!! cherundolo didn't play in 2002 because he was not on the same level as sanneh, that's why lil steve didn't play in 2002, and thank goodness coach arena understood as much. I mean in two out of the three games in 06 cherundolo was replaced at halftime, and at the 60 min mark

Maybe Steve cherundolos importance to our national team was really overstated over the years. He did have a decent run in 2010, but maybe someone else would have been a better option.

DaM said...

dolo was injured right before the 2002 world cup. i remember being really bummed for him. playing sanneh out there was an emergency response by arena. that's why he was playing out of position and all. that's why we were all paying so much attention to where JOB played with Ajax. saying that arena somehow knew that sanneh was a better player than dolo is absurd. arena didnt even like to start Sanneh at RB for DC United. how can you not know this stuff? maybe it was all before your time.

as for 2006... the only full match dolo played? we tied the eventual champs 1-1. cause thats the match where we didnt go down early. meanwhile dolo was a hugely important piece in the 2009 tourneys as well as the 2010 world cup and everything else in between.

dmb being amazing as some kind of consensus opinion is absurd. he was good for what he was. fast, good 1 v 1 defender, terrible in the air, atrocious crosser of the ball, with an historically high missed pass % rate for a left midfielder and a penchant for awful turnovers in his own end that he usually made up for with his speed.

DaM said...

(by historically high i didn't mean it was an all-time high, just this historic trend being on the high side)

DaM said...

Also looks like CP10 may be on this list after all according to various and sundry places of informational updating. Interesting wrinkle that it seems like it's senior not olympic.

dikranovich said...

dAM, if Steve cherundolo was slated to start in 2002, maybe you can explain why he was not even on the original 23 man roster?

OZ said...

Dany Tzvi

"on paper, it doesn't make sense. it merits criticism and discussion. we will probably not know the facts of the matter for a while, and that's how it should be imo. best not to hang dirty laundry in the middle of a cycle."

Coaches don't make decisions on players on paper.

"there is no logical reason that lichaj hasn't had a sniff. there is no logical reason that feilhaber wasn't at least in cupcake camp this year. "

No logic? Of course there was. The boss , in this case JK, does not to think that Lichaj and Benny are what he wants on his team. The decision is his and his alone.

There is the logic.

"its hard for me to say because i dont know these people, maybe greg knows better, but the only explanation is a personal decision by klinsmann, whether it be based on a desired team culture, perceived individual work ethic/ambition, or some faux pas."

It sounds like you think the process of a player being selected to play is similar to the process of you being hired for a job. As if there were all these legalities and procedures involved and standards you must adhere to. We all know the drill.

None of these things apply to a player being picked for the USMNT or for any pro sports team.

Benny and Eric cannot take JK and the USSF to court for bias in hiring or something like that. Taylor Twellman did not sue Arena and the USSF for not taking him to the 2006 World Cup.

Such litigation is as American as baseball and apple pie but you never see it. At least not yet.

The manager of a pro sports team is not an elected public servant.
He is the boss and he gets to pick who he hires and in this case the USMNT is not an equal opportunity employer.

This is what being a fan is all about, thinking that we know better than the coach and when results don't go the way we want, trying everything possible to undermine the coach.

OZ said...

Greg,

"Well, if many people feel the same way, why am I out of bounds for expressing my opinion? That's kinda why you're here in the first place."

So if everyone believes something it must be true? Did you know that not one person was burned at the stake in the Salem Witch trials? They were all hung and one man was "pressed" (big rock on the chest causing suffocation).

I never said that you were wrong to express your opinion. I am saying your opinion is based on very shaky ground and that I don't agree with you.

"I gave rather clear reasons for why Feilhaber should not be constantly excluded, and none of them had to do with serving my POV. Anyone can see the evidence I mentioned."

I've seen the evidence and it is sketchy at best. I watched Benny his whole US career. He wasn't as good as the "evidence" suggests. The evidence you cited is a classic case of putting the best face on things.

Benny SHOULD have been the other half of the USMNT's Benny/ Mikey show. Instead he pissed it all away. Mikey has half of Benny's talent, maybe less, but has worked three to four times as hard. So now Benny gets religion and we are supposed to buy the new improved Benny 2.0 as a USMNT star? My opinion? Bullshit.

Maybe I'm too hard on Benny so I would not have a problem with JK capping him at this point but I have no problem with JK leaving him out either, because maybe I'm not being too hard on Benny.

"He has constantly laid out standards throughout his tenure, and I am far from the first or only person to notice that they do not apply equally to everyone."

You choose to ignore the the qualifiers that have always been attached to those "standards".

"Like the movie says, like Pirate rules, those "standards" are more like "guidelines". They are elastic. They almost NEVER apply equally across the pool. - And this is okay? Maybe you think so, but I don't. And again, we are talking about a team that has under-performed for nearly two years now. It's not like I'm criticizing over-achievements."

Yes it's okay. In fact it is mandatory. The USMNT is a moving target, things change with that team all the time and much of what happens is out of the manager's control.
That is what happens to all national team managers who have almost no real control over their players and whose player pool is third rate and thin at best.

There is a lot of damage control and a lot of making it up as you go along.

"Well, I guess there's the real rub, isn't it? Hey, if you think Klinsi has been getting the maximum out of the player pool, fair enough. Not sure how anyone could think that, but okay.-And by the way, I agree with a majority of his choices, too. Just not all of them, and again, I'm far from the only one with criticism about it."

Is that how you determine the legitimacy of something? Everyone says it so it must be true? That is a poor way to evaluate a team.

I think JK is doing a fine job in a very tricky situation.


Greg Seltzer said...

"I've seen the evidence and it is sketchy at best. I watched Benny his whole US career. He wasn't as good as the "evidence" suggests. The evidence you cited is a classic case of putting the best face on things."

Your opinion.



"Maybe I'm too hard on Benny... "

That's putting it mildly.


"Yes it's okay. In fact it is mandatory. The USMNT is a moving target, things change with that team all the time and much of what happens is out of the manager's control. That is what happens to all national team managers who have almost no real control over their players and whose player pool is third rate and thin at best.
There is a lot of damage control and a lot of making it up as you go along."

I don't agree with anything you say here until the last half of the last sentence. I'm not ignoring his qualifiers, I just realize they don't mean anything.



"Is that how you determine the legitimacy of something? Everyone says it so it must be true? That is a poor way to evaluate a team."

Again, I did not say that. And you've been here more than long enough to know I don't check which way the wind blows to form my opinion. But you are talking as if my observations are some personal bias-heavy outliers and they certainly aren't.


"I think JK is doing a fine job in a very tricky situation."

He's been okay. He could be better. Especially since WC14, and if you can't agree with that, I have no idea what to tell you. The proof is in the pudding and ours demonstrably was not so sweet in 2015. Both Klinsi and his payers have admitted as much publicly. Not sure why I'm so wrong for saying the exact same thing.

OZ said...

Greg,

"I'm not ignoring his qualifiers, I just realize they don't mean anything."

What do you base that on?


"And you've been here more than long enough to know I don't check which way the wind blows to form my opinion. But you are talking as if my observations are some personal bias-heavy outliers and they certainly aren't. “

How would any of us know whether you “check which way the wind blows” to form your opinion?

You frequently write things like: “Just not all of them, and again, I'm far from the only one with criticism about it." That is a direct quote.

You suggest that since your views are shared by others that that validates them in some way. What none of us can know is which came first, their opinion or yours?

Don't blame anyone else if we have no idea how or when you form your opinions.

"Both Klinsi and his payers have admitted as much publicly. Not sure why I'm so wrong for saying the exact same thing."

Who said you were wrong? Not me. 2015 was a bad year from a results standpoint.

The difference between you and me is I do not see it anywhere near as negatively as you do.

This team has been in full rebuild mode since the Brazil WC ended and there has to be a transition period. And 2015 was it. Transitions are often rocky.

The World Cup ( and of course, qualifying for it) as Bruce Arena loves to say, is the only thing by which to judge the USMNT manager, not the Gold Cup , not the Confederations Cup, not even Copa America. All those matter only as they relate to prepping the US for 2018.

Greg Seltzer said...

"What do you base that on?"

Erm, the fact that one time he says one thing referring to one case and then another time the thing he said before is not applying in another case.



"How would any of us know whether you “check which way the wind blows” to form your opinion?"

Because my opinion often goes the opposite direction? C'mon.



"You frequently write things like: “Just not all of them, and again, I'm far from the only one with criticism about it." That is a direct quote."

Your direct quote is from this thread. How does that translate to frequently?


"You suggest that since your views are shared by others that that validates them in some way."

For the second time, that was not my point. I already explained why I said it.



"Don't blame anyone else if we have no idea how or when you form your opinions."

Who's blaming anybody??? I have repeatedly questioned Klinsi's selections, quite often for the same exact problems. I don't understand why we're going off on these tangents. These comments of mine did not fall out of a clear blue sky, they were direct responses to suggestions about my viewpoint.




"Who said you were wrong? Not me."

O_O



"2015 was a bad year from a results standpoint. The difference between you and me is I do not see it anywhere near as negatively as you do."

How negative am I being? I said they've been underwhelming, not that they've been complete crap. I said he's not getting the most out of the squad, not that he's ridden them off a cliff.



"This team has been in full rebuild mode since the Brazil WC ended and there has to be a transition period. And 2015 was it. Transitions are often rocky."

Why was a full rebuild necessary? This current roster has 15 players from the WC14 squad, Johannsson is out injured, Jones is just getting started in Colorado after a while without a club and Green is with the U-23 team. Where is the full rebuild transition? Not seeing it.



"The World Cup ( and of course, qualifying for it) as Bruce Arena loves to say, is the only thing by which to judge the USMNT manager, not the Gold Cup , not the Confederations Cup, not even Copa America. All those matter only as they relate to prepping the US for 2018."

Yeah, I don't agree with that. This is not 2002 anymore. Stakes are higher now, in part because Bruce raised them.

DaM said...

i didn't say he was slated to start, i said we had no clue... and that sanneh certainly was not arena's go to rb leading up to or after the 2002 world cup. there was a point in time where people were even thinking armas might start there before he got hurt. JOB played some minutes there for Ajax and it looked like he would be the next try... if he could stay healthy :(

there were all kind of "options" on that team but no locked in starter, certainly not sanneh. not positive but I believe Carlos LLamosa actually got a lot of RB starts in 2001. heydude... a lot of us thought dolo would be the answer but Arena didnt take him, then he took him when armas went down... then dolo went down. all still before the wc started.

dolo was 22. rb was a mess. still is. sanneh was the savior for a couple of weeks but never played that well again.

dikranovich said...

Spring is a time to rejoice, not revoice!!!

I mean really, the 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 are the same formation, played with a different mentality. Does that mean that the 4-3-3, and the 4-4-1-1 are the same formation? Well, according to some it does.

dikranovich said...

Dam, so you are also aware that Tony sanneh was playing defense in the bundas league leading up to the 2002 World Cup, and cherundolo was not? It's classic how you try and marginalize the impact of a player by saying it was only positive for a couple of weeks. As if that somehow supports your position.

DaM said...

Come on man you are just looking up crap on wikipedia and citing it like it means something. yeah he played at hertha for like 2.5 years or whatever it was. he played in something like 10-20 bundesliga matches over 2 years, rarely at RB (though occasionally) and didn't do much.

Was unsettled and unrated by hertha the whole time and allowed to leave on free after his contract was up. when he went to nurnberg he played a lot more that first season during which time they got relegated. they got promoted after the 2002 world cup and nurnberg ditched him. i guess maybe they didn't think he had somehow turned into the best rb in the world, regardless of his amazing 2002 performance.

let's not pretend he had a great bundesliga career, unlike dolo who did. it's not that sanneh was bad. great MLS player, great world cup 2002 player but in no way did he go into the 2002 world cup as a fait accompli and at no point in his career OTHER THAN the 2002 world cup was he considered the best USMNT player at any position.

OZ said...

Greg,

"Erm, the fact that one time he says one thing referring to one case and then another time the thing he said before is not applying in another case."

That's because these things are on a case by case basis.

"Your direct quote is from this thread. How does that translate to frequently?"

You have replied in that manner to a couple of my posts. I can look them up if you like.

"Why was a full rebuild necessary? This current roster has 15 players from the WC14 squad, Johannsson is out injured, Jones is just getting started in Colorado after a while without a club and Green is with the U-23 team. Where is the full rebuild transition? Not seeing it."

We are about a year and a half or so from having to decide on a 2018 WC squad. That is a real long time in soccer.
Fabian is the only the only player from the 2014 WC squad that is a lock to be on the 2018 WC squad ( assuming we are not are war with Russia and that the US makes the World Cup).
That is why a full rebuild is necessary.

"Yeah, I don't agree with that. This is not 2002 anymore. Stakes are higher now, in part because Bruce raised them."

Bruce made the comments I am referring to in 2015 when asked about the 2017 Confederations Cup which he blasted as a money grab and said that the US would be better off resting the players at that time.
Since 2002 the stakes are higher- for performance in the World Cup. I base that on the actions of the USSF.
The USSF has de-emphasized the importance of the Gold Cup buy sending B squads to it when qualification for the Confederations Cup for the Gold Cup winner was not attached as an incentive.
That is why the USSF sent the B squad to Copa America in 2007 and the A team to the Gold Cup. Winning the Gold Cup that year meant entry to the 2009 Confederations Cup.
Bruce's reservations notwithstanding and the money aside, the argument can be made that that tournament was great preparation for a team like the US, which does not play many tough tournaments other than the World Cup. It seems clear to me it helped Bob's team in 2010. Copa America will have to serve that function this time around.

Sure they want to do well every time they play but it is clear that while the USSF won't actually say it, its interest in the other tournaments they play is primarily based on how they set up the USMNT for the World Cup.

Greg Seltzer said...

"That's because these things are on a case by case basis."

I find that a disservice to the players. I can't imagine they care for it, either.


"You have replied in that manner to a couple of my posts. I can look them up if you like."

Maybe so, if a rather common opinion was treated as some strange outlier. That's the only occasion I would say it.


"Fabian is the only the only player from the 2014 WC squad that is a lock to be on the 2018 WC squad."

I don't believe that for a second, but either way, the squad we're talking about has 15 players from the WC14 side and there are three others who would certainly be there if not for their current circumstances. As that is the case, I see no total overhaul occurring.


"Bruce made the comments I am referring to in 2015 when asked about the 2017 Confederations Cup which he blasted as a money grab and said that the US would be better off resting the players at that time."

Regardless of when he said it, I don't even slightly agree. Nor does Klinsmann, nor does the USSF.


"Since 2002 the stakes are higher- for performance in the World Cup. I base that on the actions of the USSF."

I don't agree.


"The USSF has de-emphasized the importance of the Gold Cup buy sending B squads to it when qualification for the Confederations Cup for the Gold Cup winner was not attached as an incentive. That is why the USSF sent the B squad to Copa America in 2007 and the A team to the Gold Cup. Winning the Gold Cup that year meant entry to the 2009 Confederations Cup."

This all displays exactly the opposite motive of what you're suggesting.


"Sure they want to do well every time they play but it is clear that while the USSF won't actually say it, its interest in the other tournaments they play is primarily based on how they set up the USMNT for the World Cup."

Not at all sure how you figure this.

Dany Tzvi said...

I love how these discussions go. you might as well let this guy argue against himself. OZ u have somehow managed to provide evidence that refutes every disjointed, haphazard argument that you've tried to make. really, it's quite.... impressive. i wonder how much longer you will go on and on, writing an extensive essay about nothing in the comments section of a stranger's blog.

Greg Seltzer said...

OZ is welcome to say whatever, I just don't agree with these things he's saying or get how he came to those conclusions. No biggie.

OZ said...

Dany Tzvi,

"i wonder how much longer you will go on and on, writing an extensive essay about nothing"

Care to tell me what topics of great substance are being discussed on this site that I am missing?

dikranovich said...

This site could use a third party moderator, and adjudicator. It would hold everyone to a higher account.

Greg Seltzer said...

Says far and away the biggest problem here...


Have you ever been to another website? This is nothing.

dikranovich said...

Greg, you have responded to my comments on another web site, so you know I have.

Maybe the other web sites need this also. But if I'm going to debate people like dAM, and Dany, and freegle, and fennel, and tsar Gregor, I'd like to have someone impartial to weight in. Dam or Dany telling us how smart they are, and riding your shirt tail like some little puppies is just not getting us anywhere.

Greg Seltzer said...

Not gonna happen, end of discussion. OZ or anyone else is free to disagree or argue with me because they stay on topic and don't resort to insult antics. Stay on topic and contribute rather than disrupting or we'll go back to chopping posts. I have no patience for this game anymore.

dikranovich said...

There is a great example of this right here in this thread. Oz brings up non natural wingbacks playing the position, you say we are not Germany or Argentina. So Tony sanneh pretty much puts in the best performance of any wingback for the USA ever, and of course he also played in a three man back line against Mexico, which is yet another debate we have, and here we are.

Who makes the better points on this debate? Is it Dam trying to marginalize sannehs 2002 performance, is it you trying to explain that we are not Argentina, or Germany?

If we had someone to judge these debates, It would bring a lot more resolution, which considering what we have resolved here of the years, which is virtually nothing, that would have to be a step in th right direction.

Greg Seltzer said...

It's not a competition, it's a conversation. No one has to be a winner or a loser. Move on.

dikranovich said...

Greg, who is talking about winning and losing? How about just a little resolution?

Can you explain why you ar so against the template that helped USA to its best ever World Cup finish, in the modern era?

dikranovich said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
dikranovich said...

RIP Johan Cruyff, gone but never to be forgotten!